Ep. 3: Jay Sukow

James Clasper: Hello, and welcome to Dad Mode Activated, the podcast celebrating fatherhood after 40. I'm your host, James Clasper, and here I talk to fellow late bloomers about the unique joys and challenges of becoming a dad later in life. My guest today is Jay Sukow. A graduate of the renowned improv training center, the Second City in Chicago, Jay has trained with the likes of Stephen Colbert and Steve Carell. He also founded the Los Angeles-based company Today Improv, which teaches improv to actors, businesses, and pretty much everybody else. But most importantly of all, Jay has two kids. Oh, and he loves the Beastie Boys. Jay, welcome to the podcast

Jay Sukow: James, you nailed that intro, buddy.

James Clasper: Before we talk about parenting, tell me about improv. Remind me, what is improv, and what is its most important tenet or principle?

Jay Sukow: It's an ensemble-based activity. It's like a group sport, a creative sport. So you're with people on stage, and you create things in the moment with no script at all. And you just have to rely on saying the big, the big bedrock tool is yes. And which is yes to your idea. And so if you said I'm a doctor, I would say ‘yes and’ here, why I'm here, I wouldn't say, no, you're not. You're a pilot. because that stops everything. And so having that idea of yes and supporting, making your partner look good. You're the least important person of this ensemble listening in that moment and no judgment. ‘Yes and’ is no judgment. So deferring judgment, which also all those skills come really, they come in so handy for being a parent. So for me, it's like. as a parent, you are improvising 24/7. You might have a plan that goes out the window very quickly a lot of the time. So tell people, you should take an improv class. It's not about being a performer on stage. It's more like just, it will help you in life. One of my mentors is a guy named Martin DeMott, who was at Second City, and he said, if everyone took one improv class, the world would be a better place.    

James Clasper: All right, this is a podcast about embracing fatherhood after 40, so tell me how you fit the bill. How old are your kids now? And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you now? And thus, how old you were when you became a dad.

Jay Sukow: My son just celebrated his 12th birthday, and my daughter's nine going on 10 going on 20. So, she's very mature for her age and wants to be older. My son loves where he is now. I'm 54. so my son was born when I was 43 and my daughter, I was 45 when she was born. So didn't want to necessarily be a father. Like, that wasn't a dream I had. But it got to a point where we were looking at timing and it said, okay, well it's got to be now or never. And so in my forties I entered into fatherhood and I cannot understand how people honestly do it earlier in their life. I just don't get it.  

James Clasper: There is a flip side, of course, and that's that having kids in your forties or older comes with all sorts of risks and concerns. When you decided to have kids, did they play on your mind at all?

Jay Sukow: You do think about it. You think about not only at that age where you are having children, but also as they get older and also grandchildren as well. So you start thinking, okay, when they are in their later years, when they're in high school, when they're at university, what age am I going to be? And I remember thinking, Oh, I'm going to show up at their talent shows for school when they're, you know, eight, nine, 10 years old, and going to be considered like their grandfather, and it's like, oh, your grandfather's here. And it's like, oh, no, no, no. That's my dad. So it did come into play and it came into play with me personally because my parents both passed away when I was young. I was in my early 20s and my parents were in their mid-60s and my mom was in her early 70s. And so I was also thinking about that too of like, oh, how much time will I have with them? So that does come into play for sure. How can you not think about it, right? And it's it's a little more acceptable now, James, because there are more advances in medical technology, it's easier to have children later in life, but it is that you think about, of like, what are they going to be like as they get older and as I get older? But you have to make a decision at some point, are we going to try to have kids? And for us, there was that. We're not getting younger. We are at this age. It's a high risk. So we weighed the pros and cons and said, yep, let's let's try and it luckily for us happened pretty quickly.

James Clasper: The flip side to that is that there are many potential advantages to being an older parent. What have been the biggest benefits in your case, do you think?

Jay Sukow: I think definitely patience. I think definitely for me just you're more chilled out as you get older. You look at it and you say, I've got more experience. I'm more mature. I have more, financially. It's it's better for me as I got older. So a lot of those outweigh for us, for my ex and I, because I'm divorced, but we still co-parent. And so a lot of the advantages of being older having kids at an early age, so you, you have more wisdom, right? You might have more… there's a difference between wisdom and knowledge, right? And I think you get more wisdom as you get older. You start to see how other people raise their kids and you're like, Oh, okay, I'm going to make sure I don't want to do that. Or I want to do that based on what you see. And I know that my expectation of myself, what I felt my role is as a parent changed as well. And so it happened for me at the right time. Like, I can't see being older or younger looking back now. I'm like, it happened exactly where it needed to happen for me, uh, with all things considered.

James Clasper: Are there examples of how that kind of wisdom has, you know, come to help you as a parent, that experience of being older?

Jay Sukow: Yeah, I think you are less selfish. you get older also and the things that you want to do for you took precedence where you're like, I'm going to do this thing and it doesn't affect anyone else and you don't even think about how it's going to affect somebody else. I think as you get older, you start thinking, how is this going to affect other people? We bottle-fed our kids, which also allowed me to, in those feeding moments, because when you have that child every two hours, they have to be fed and that means middle of the night. Now if I was younger, I honestly might have like pretended to be sleeping a lot more. But when I got older, it was like, Oh, there's no doubt, I've got to get up. I've got to take care of this kid. I have to put any thoughts of myself or needs aside. So there's a lot of advantages I have now and the wisdom to be honest with yourself and also what you're capable of. And asking for help. And I think as a younger man, I don't know if I would have asked for help as much or said like, yeah, I don't know. I think as a younger man, I would have assumed I knew or kind of faked my way more now where it's like, Oh, I'm okay. Asking for help. I'm I think that's part of what it is to be a parent or to say to my kids, I don't know. Also, what I've noticed is, you know, there are times I'll apologize with my kids and say like, Oh, I'm sorry. I lost my temper or I lost my cool or I'm trying, or we'll have conversations. Whereas if I was younger, I don't think I would have done that. I think I would have, because my parents never really apologized to me and it's not a blame, it just wasn't, I don't remember my parents ever saying, Hey, sorry, I overreacted. They were younger when they had me. So I think with that wisdom, partly is admitting when you're wrong, admitting when you need help and then celebrating these moments and saying, like I had a conversation with my son the other day and it was like, I'm really proud of you for interacting with this one teacher because she has a different communication style than you're used to. And I don't know if I was younger if I would have taken time out to say those things or just assume that he knew.

James Clasper: Tell me, then, some of the things you enjoy the most about being a parent per se, but, you know, perhaps even as a relatively older parent that you think, I didn't think I would enjoy this, but actually I kind of do,

Jay Sukow: I do honestly laugh when people think that I'm a grandparent. I'm like, oh, I kind of think it's funny in a way. I enjoy as an older parent being with my kids. I enjoy scheduling time for them and setting time aside where it's just for us or, since I have two kids, to have moments where it's one-on-one time. When I was younger, that time might've been focused on career or earning a living or doing things that I wanted to do. So, all right, I have to do this. I have to do this thing with my kids and then when that's done, I get to go to do the fun stuff. But to me as an older parent, the kids are the fun stuff. And I don't want to be out at night. I want to be home at night. And I think, as a younger man, that would not have been the case. I would have done it. I would have been the best parent I could be. But I'd also be like, okay, when the kids are asleep, I’m going to go out and then I'm going to go out and do shows, or I'm going to, you know, meet up with friends, whatever it is. I think now it's like, no, as I get older, the fun.

James Clasper: Did it surprise you to find being around kids fun? I mean, many people don't find kids fun until they have their own.  

Jay Sukow: My thought was maybe a little bit of the opposite of, Oh, am I going to let him have too much fun? Am I just going to be like, Hey, whatever. There was a story my sister tells, when she had her first, I was like young, I was still, I believe in college. I was like 18, 19 maybe. And she went out for a night and had me babysit. Now I didn't want to babysit. I didn't know anything about babysitting. And she said she came home and there were just bottles of food. Like I was just giving my nephew, anytime they would cry, I'd be like, here's a bottle. And there were like four bottles out, which was like way too much for the time. So my fear was it was all going to be fun and games and I will be like their buddy and I won't be a parent and they'll get away with stuff and I won't be able to confront them in situations. So that was my fear, it was, oh, I'm going to have too much fun with them. And it turned out to be, I think, the opposite. I think if you ask my kids, oh, I know if you ask my kids between their mom and me, I'm the taskmaster. I'm more stern. I have more rules and boundaries. I'm more strict, which is very funny because I'm, for what my career has been, you would think it would be the complete opposite. You'd think I'd be like putting on puppet shows and doing improv bits and things.

James Clasper: It's ‘yes and’ every day in your household.

Jay Sukow: And it's like, well, there is ‘yes and’, but I look at the ‘yes and’ more like ‘I hear you’ rather than agreeing to anything. So that's thing that has definitely changed in that I am not that ‘let's go’. We do have fun. We have fun all the time. My son will say, Oh, we do too much with you, Dad. Like we're on, we're riding bikes and we're going for walks and we're going here and they just want to… he's like, I just want to sometimes play video games. So I'm having a transition to understanding the video game world because I don't play video games myself, but that's also a way that the kids communicate with each other. We do have fun. We have moments of silliness for sure, but it's not all the time. That's something that I was aware of. It's like, I want there to be boundaries. I want it to be, I'm a parent. Not a friend, like you're the parent first, and it's been that way.

James Clasper: If I'm not mistaken, you did a moment or two ago say that you have been mistaken for a grandparent. Is that right?

Jay Sukow: Oh yes. Many times, including once with kid's grandmother. So my ex-wife's mother and I, and this was within a few months of my son being born, who's now 12. We were walking, and somebody came up and said, Oh, look at that. That's such a cute baby. That's your grandson, right? To both of us. So it was like, oh my goodness. That was my fear. My fear was like, Oh, I'm going to be sitting in the auditorium at their school during a talent show. And it's like, Oh, who brought their grandpa? Because of the, for me necessarily, but for them to have to say, no, that's my dad. But again, that's an, that's just some internal fear we have and it's happened more than once. At this point it's like, ah, okay, but yeah, it's, it has happened. 

James Clasper: In what way do you think fatherhood has changed you?  

Jay Sukow: It's kind of a clichéd answer, but it's like, what are your priorities? Your priorities change. And for me, I love it because I want to be home. It's not that I feel I have to be home or, and maybe as a younger man, I would have felt like, Oh, I gotta be here. I have to do this. No, no. It's like my choice of anything to do. Let's stay home and make pizzas and watch movies. And I heard a great piece of advice from someone who said, yeah, if there's one thing I would do now that I'm a grandparent, it's with my kids, I would have spent an extra two minutes as I put them to sleep just sitting there, they're sleeping just an extra minute or two because you can't get that time back. So as I get older I realize that these moments are precious. Every little moment I'm banking in my memory and I'm like, yeah, this is good. This is good. Then you have to learn to go easy on yourself in those moments when it just emotions take over and they're going to act their age. You have to be okay with like, oh, I got really frustrated. I apologize. That was not the right message to send. Or, Hey, do you know why I did that? Or do you know how you were feeling? All these things I talked to my kids about now, I know I wouldn't have done because I wasn't as mature. I wasn't as self-realized when I was younger. I was working through my own stuff and if I, to be a kid, a kid of my own, to be 20 and a kid and then to be a parent or 30? No way, no way.

James Clasper: What kind of parent might you have made?

Jay Sukow: Awful. I mean, and I say that because I knew when I was in my twenties, I had one focus and it was on me. I came from a very sheltered childhood. So I was out on my own. I didn't know how to live on my own. I didn't know how to come up with a budget or get insurance, like all these things that you have to work through. I was introduced to improv as a Christmas present, and I fell in love with it, but there was no career in improv, which was the attraction to me. And a lot of my contemporaries were like, Oh, this is a lazy art form with no chance for advancement. Perfect. We love it. So, the twenties, to me, were that time to experiment and to try things. And I saw people who had careers, and I was like, they all look miserable. So I don't want a career, but I want to do whatever I can to be able to do improv at night. But I also knew I wouldn't be able to buy a home. I wouldn't really be able to own a new car. Like I knew the things I would give up to do that. I probably would live with roommates. And I thought there's no way to have a child when you're living with roommates. Hey, these are four other dudes I'm living with. So I'm like, yeah, I didn't want to make… I don't want to say sacrifice, but I didn't want to have the reality set in because I was like, Oh, I'm not ready for, I'm not ready to do that. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. And I would have probably had a part of me my whole life going, ah, regret, which I think I see creep into folks my age where they start going, I'm going to pick up that guitar again. They're like, I'm going to join a band again. Like they give that part of themselves up creatively. And then later on, they're like, this relationship isn't it for me. I want to find something else. I haven't found that thing. And I felt like I found that thing and I loved it. And I was able to travel and do a lot of things because of improv. Now I'm like, Oh, that was great. But now I feel like, yeah, I like where I am. So I like being an older parent. I like having lived the life I lived. and hopefully be able to be a consultant to my kids. I look at parenting like that. I look at it like you can either be a drill sergeant and tell them what to do when they're afraid of you, or you could be a helicopter parent and like always try to protect them. Or you can be a consultant and be like, okay, if you do that, here's probably what's going to happen, but you have to make that decision. And I feel like I hope I'm more of that ladder camp of a consultant. 

James Clasper: You mentioned the word purpose a moment ago, and also that friends of yours who had children when they were younger kind of reached a point in their midlife where they were looking to, you know, pick up a guitar and start a band. And I wonder if you agree that having children at the age you did staved off any such searching or questioning because you suddenly had not only the responsibility of small children but also that immense sense of purpose at a time in your life when many of your peers were looking around going, is this it?

Jay Sukow: Wow, pretty insightful, man. I think it's, I think it's accurate. At that point in your life, people look for what is this about, right? What, like, what is the meaning? Like, I experienced everything? So some people are like, I'm going to get a car or I'm going to revisit this. I think what you're saying is, what is your purpose? And one of the things I think that's wired into us as humans is like, raising a community or raising a family. And for some people that might be, I don't want to have kids, but I'm going to go volunteer or I talk with my wife now and it's like, we have this conversation even now, like what's it about?Like, what is it about? And I think you try to make sense of this, this world. But I do think when I had kids, it was like, Oh, this is an added purpose. That's bigger than me. This. And I think people are looking for that. And I'm like, Part of what I think our purpose is, is to bring kindness and selflessness to the world. And a child forces you to be selfless. And so at that time in my life, it was like, yeah, I think it was a transition to a phase where I went from a youth, from focusing on my needs to like, okay, let's transition here. That came at, hopefully what's my midlife where they came in to be. And it's like, I don't want it to be my children to find who I am. That's not what it is. It is, this is bringing you more to a sense of, for me, a sense of completion. And I'm like, yeah, I think I was meant to have kids. I think that was the right choice because you look at it and you say when you're older. Part of being an older parent, why it's so good in my opinion is that you also have conversations and saying, what are the positives and negatives of having children? We are at an age now, my ex and I had that conversation. Are we going to regret having kids? Are we going to regret not having kids? If we have kids, it will be, we can do X, Y, and Z less, but we'll have this. So you have those conversations. And as a younger man, it would have been almost all romantic. It'll be great. We'll have kids. But as an older man, go, okay, I'm making a more logical decision. And so it came at that time where, you know, maybe it was in reverse of what normally happens, which is like, normally you have the family, then you do something like, I'm going to do improv or I'm going to go back and pick up that guitar and play. I'm going to play bass again. I'm going to call up my old buddies from the band. It kind of flipped where it's like, Oh, I did the band thing early and then, okay, now, now I'm having kids.   

James Clasper: But have you in any way sacrificed anything, do you think, by having kids when you did?

Jay Sukow: I don't travel as much as I used to. I don't travel for work as much now. The scheduling just doesn't make it possible because I co-parent. And so figuring a time to have my kids with their mom, based on scheduling for an extended period of time. It just is impossible right now. It'll come back. You make definite financial sacrifices. Having kids costs money. It just does. And you know, you buy your kid a pair of shoes and they grow out of them within a week because they're just in a growth spurt. One of the things I've noticed is your health. You just, your body just starts breaking down as you get older. So lifting my kids is not, if I was younger, I'd still probably be able to more than I can now. So the physical toll that comes with age, an impact running with your kids. You know, when they're like, let's run. And I remember thinking, oh, I remember talking to my dad about this and wanting him to run and be like, Dad, why won't you just run? And it's like, well, as a 12-year-old boy, you can run all day. But as a 50-year-old man, you're like, I can't do it. So there are times where you feel like, Oh, I can't put you on my shoulders anymore, and that was super fun. So some of those sacrifices that just help you flex your acceptance muscle and you're like, ah, I just can't do that now. I used to be able to do it. So there are things that you give up. Then again, there are also things that are okay that I give up. Like I give up shows that start at 9 pm. My kids are up at six. I'm up at six, whether they're here or not. I've given up. Oh, I can just sleep in because I just can't because I'm up all the time at 6 am. So I can't just be like, ah, it's Saturday. I'm sleeping till noon. It's like, I can't, I'm up. I'm thinking about stuff. But the biggest thing I've noticed as I get older is like, oh, my, it's just my body, my body, more aches and pains and more like strains and, and lifting and all that just, you, you can't do that as easily.

James Clasper: No, and you talk about running. I'm fine running. It's just getting off the sofa that's the problem, right?

Jay Sukow: They’ve got arms. Sofas have arms and they feel nice and comfortable.

James Clasper:  I mean, what steps, if any, have you taken to kind of, you know, ease the pain or slow down the rot or are you just kind of quietly accepting your fate here?

Jay Sukow: I laugh because I think of my dad and my dad would always say like, ah, growing old sucks. But the thing that I do now that I didn't do as a younger man is preventative health care. Going to the doctor, getting or saying, you know, instead of being like, no, I'm fine, being like, I should have this thing checked out. I got this mark here; let me just double-check. So there are things that I do in that instance where it's like I can do preventative health care or upkeep. I wouldn't have done it when I was younger, but I do now.  

James Clasper: Do you think of yourself as an older person or as an older parent?

Jay Sukow: Most of my thoughts, I'm like, I'm still like 20, right? And I don't mean that like, I just mean like, I listen to the same kind of music. I wear pretty similar style of clothing. When I think of myself as older, honestly is when I'm at, when I'm getting a haircut and the hair falls into my lap and I'm like, that's a lot of white hair. Like, I don't picture myself as someone with gray hair. And now I'm like, Oh, I look like Mr. Fantastic with like white on the sides and it's getting salt and pepper everywhere. So I don't consider myself in my fifties and when I tell people I'm in my fifties, a lot of the reaction honestly is like, Oh really? And I don't mean that like egotistically. I just have, I think, like a younger-looking face, but I don't consider myself in my fifties unless can use it to my advantage of like getting a free dessert at a restaurant or getting a discount. Then I'm like, yeah.

James Clasper: Getting a seat on a bus.  

Jay Sukow: Which has happened where people are like, Oh, would you like a seat? So that's the time where it strikes me as like, Oh, I'm older than I think I like my age to a lot of people older. I do get called sir a lot more from people in their twenties, like not just like younger people, but there are people who are older who look at me in that way. I look at some people and I'm like, we're the same age, right? And it's like, I think I have three decades on them and I'll be like, no, but we're like similar because either they seem more mature or I picture myself in that world. So I think I still view myself as like a 20-something, partly, it's like, Oh, if you ask people, I don't think they would think I was as old as I am because I don't tend to act what I would consider as like an, like a 50-year-old. I still seem to have immaturity and playfulness, thankfully.

James Clasper: What do your kids think? Are they ever like, hey dad, act your age?

Jay Sukow: Oh yeah, and I love it. Because I'll be like, man that's totally sus, right, Ella? Aand she'll just roll her eyes. But that's what I like. I want that. Because I would play it kind of and silly. Not in any way like, oh I really am going to use the word sus. Like to me I'm like, oh that's okay, that's their vernacular. But I think it's funny when I try to like do it. Because I think it's just silly. So I think I'm seeing from my kids those stages of, Oh, you're getting older, you're maturing, but also you are, Oh, I had a conversation with my daughter last night and I'm like, I don't want us to have this relationship where there's this talk back that's starting to happen and here's why and here's what it means to me. So as a younger man, I would not have said that. I would have just been like, stop or said like, I'm the dad, that's why. Which is what was told to me by my parents. My mom would be like, I'm the mom. That's why it just was like, well, why can't I do this? So I think as, as they get older, it is also hanging on for dear life of like what those things are, what the, what's new What the new vernacular is, what's the new excitement? My stepson, who's 19, said, yeah, by the time you all understand an app, we're on to another one So by the time you get like Snapchat, he's like, so we're on to a different app So like, things pass us by very quickly and I know that I know kind of the lane I'm in and I would only say things really to like have a reaction from my kids. They're like, they're eye rolling.

 James Clasper: What happens when you put on Beastie Boys? Is it like, you know, playing Chopin or something?

Jay Sukow: They are our generation Chopin my friend  I say this jokingly,  kids just don't like Beastie Boys. They just don't like the music.

James Clasper: Give them time, Jay.

Jay Sukow: I know, I know I'm telling you, James, when they're in college, they're going to be listening to it. And they're going to be like, did you know this group? And it's like, yeah, I tried to get you into that for years. I used to teach them rhymes, Beastie Boy rhymes, that they'd complete, so I would set up a line, they'd complete it. They still have a sense of that. So I think when it comes on, they're kind of like PTSD triggered or like, Oh, I used to say that. Beastie Boys also have a special place for me because they grew up in their music and their maturation. They also became parents later in life. So their journey and mine, like a lot of the messages I received were real similar to what they were talking about in their music.

James Clasper: Let's shift gears a little. Tell me about your parenting philosophy or mindset.

Jay Sukow: It's interesting to ask me this, and it would be interesting to ask my kids, right? To be like, I think I'm this and to see if they have a similar answer or not. I think as a parent, what I try to do is I try to provide the good things I got from my parents and then the places that were lacking when I was growing up. So like, my parents, I told them, I started taking improv classes in college my last year at university and I said, I think I want to do this. I don't know what it is. And they said, well, that's great. Just finish and get your degree. Be happy. Like there was question, the support. So I want to do that. And I think I want to encourage them try and whatever they want to do. Great. I also want to make sure they have a sense of emotional wellbeing and to get a sense of like, what these feelings mean and how do you process them and how does that come into play? And I want to also be able to have them say, yeah, when my dad was wrong, he would apologize, which I don't remember ever getting myself. So I want to make sure that I'm the kind of parent they can come to and say, and tell me anything, knowing that I won't have a reaction that makes it unsafe for them to tell me like I want to no matter what and I felt really good because yesterday my son said to me, I only got three out of 11 on this practice test in math, which is the first time he'd ever said he didn't do well. So I was like, okay, I like this. I like the fact that he's able to tell me something that wasn't pleasant in a situation that he's facing a lot of anxiety in. So I want to be able to provide that for them. And I also want to give them tools. I feel like your job is to provide them with tools and then at some point go, okay, fly birdie, and they're going to stumble. And it's like to not control it just to be like, I want to give you all of these tools and help you understand when to use what tool in which situation.  So I hope that I'm a compassionate, empathetic parent. I hope that they know that I'm proud of them and that I love them. My brother messaged me a while back and said, I don't know if dad was ever proud of me or said it. And I was like, Oh, wow. I mean, it's a thing of in our generation, it was kind of like, well, you know, I love you or you know, I'm proud of you. Like you never heard parents say it as much. So I feel like, okay, I want to, I hope they know that they're loved and I'm proud of them and that, that they have the tools in place to, to live as fulfilling a life as they can. 

James Clasper: Now, I think one important part of parenting is reflecting on how you were parented. And, and for older parents, there is a greater distance and time and space between you now we were raised and how we're trying to raise our kids. Do you think that makes it easier to do things differently?

Jay Sukow: Yeah, I think so. And I think this is also real specific to me. I grew up in a house that was not, did not feel like safe or, I mean, there were moments of like, we had a paddle, go get the paddle and you'd get a paddle or my mouth being washed out with soap. That just seemed normal. And then you talk to people and you're like, no, no, that's, there were some abusive things happening. So I think if I had children as a young man, I still would be aware of that as not the way I wanted to parent, not appropriate. Like I do believe I've been thinking about this for a long time where I'd be like, this shouldn't be this way as a kid. Like there are some positives in my, with my parents, but there are also behaviors that should, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't seem right. I think as you get older, you start then balancing or adding that to your own self reflection. And so I think the combination of the two, I could not have achieved.I was not as, I don't know, realized or actualized or mature, however you want to say it. I wasn't that way as a young man. And also I knew I wasn't ready to be a father. And so once we started talking about having kids, then I'm like, I'm not going to be a perfect father, but I'm ready to like, I'm ready to, if we do it now, like that was the consideration. So as you get older, all the things you say are true how you summed it up totally rings true to me. And it's like, yeah, this all had to a part to play in who I am as a parent. Then some other things you're like, Oh, I didn't even know that was inside of me. I never took a class on that thing, but I handled that thing pretty well. So I think the other thing is, Oh, based on my lived experience, I made this decision in the moment and it was the right decision. Look at me. And I don't think we think about that as much. At least I didn't have like, well, there are going to be successes too. There are going to be things you can't plan or prepare for that you aren't going to handle as well as you thought. And then some more than you think that you're going to handle very well. And you're like, wow, I did it. I did that thing. So I've given myself more grace and empathy and saying, okay, it's okay, and saying, I'm going to go back in and say, I'm sorry. I'm going to go back in and say, I love you. I'm going to go back in and we're going to play a game or I'm going to go back in and ask them what they thought of that situation. But yeah, it's, know, with, with time and experience, you get wiser. And there are probably spaces I fall short in parenting that my parents excel at too. But there is you to control. There's only you to say, do I want to do? And it's like, do I want to hold onto this thing and be like, I was right or I was entitled to have that reaction or do I want to say long game? My buddy, Jay Ferrari, he's like, never forget it's a long game, long game. And this moment now, is this important enough to fight or do you want to go in the long run? This means nothing in two years, is this thing now going to mean something to me or not? And if you phrase it that way, you put in that context, a lot of the stuff that you are upset about, it just isn't going to be important. remember folks, it's the long game. That's what you have to keep in mind. 

James Clasper: You’re a creative soul, Jay. You're a teacher, a writer, a performer. Tell me how you think having kids at your age has helped or, or hindered your creativity.

Jay Sukow: At this point in my life, a couple of things come to mind. One is I might've had a limit of shows I do in my lifetime, and I might've reached that. And not in a bad way. It might've been like, Oh my gosh, I've done thousands of shows, maybe tens. I've done so many shows. So to me, I think at this point in my life, even if I didn't have kids, I probably would be doing the same amount of shows. Honestly, I wouldn't want to go out like the shift has changed. So I was lucky enough to do a lot of shows and travel a lot of places. I'd like to travel more, but I think I'm very fortunate. So I look back now and I go, man, I've had a lot of, really great experiences. You also can be creative with your kids too Like, your creative ensemble can change from a bunch of single people to I'm doing bits with my kids. Like we play board games all the time and it's super fun. We sit and we have people over and we have conversations that are like improv shows, you know, because improv, a lot of it is just conversation. So what you consider as fulfilling you creatively shifts just like it did when I was a kid. When I was in my teens and twenties, it changed when I became 30 and now it's like, yeah, I'll do more stuff with family because that's what my experience is. So it's like, I don't know, I get creative. do sometimes posting stuff on Facebook where I'm like, that's a great bit. I love that bit. I'll post that. like that scratches that creative itch I have. I might also do shows with people where we're not on stage, but it's like we get on a Zoom call and we just improvise a thing. And that's like, wow, that satisfies me creatively. My thing with improv and performing wasn't for an audience. It was the ensemble where I was like, Oh, I found my people. So if that is on a stage, great. But if it's at dinner doing bits and shooting the breeze, that is also creative for me. So I think those, those things are, are, are really important. But like what is creative to me? Like right now I, I'm, I'm finishing up a book on improv where it's like improv and life skills of things I've learned. And that's a creative process that may never get released. Because my view with creativity is not about the end product, it's like the process. So it's like, oh, I'll do that, and then maybe I'll ask my friend Phil to send me a track of music he wrote, and I'll do poetry over it. Or, in our home, We have variety shows where we'll move the dining room table. We'll have improvisers come over and they'll do improv. Then we'll do poetry. Then we'll do music in a night in my living room. And that was like my dream as a kid is like, Oh, I want to live above a garage where there's a stage and now I've got it.

James Clasper: Are your kids into improv, have you got them doing scenes and whatnot?

Jay Sukow: Things with that. One is there's a game called Mind Meld, which is two people, you go three, two, one, and you say a word, any word. And then the next two people try to say the word that connects them. So if the words were, we went one, two, three, and I said cow, and you said grass, the next two people try to find the word that fits. So they might say cud or farm and you go around until you hit the word together and it's super fun. And I used to do it at my kids, but they would always just say pizza. So every time they'd be like one, two, three, they go pizza. So I'm like, no, you'd have to do this. And then they wouldn't want to do it. And it was a good lesson to me of like, Oh, play their game, play, play the game they want to.  

James Clasper: Well, let's end with some advice. So what would you say to someone who's in their late thirties or early forties and about to have kids or thinking about having them? What's something you think they should start or stop doing?

Jay Sukow: The best advice I ever got was don't read anything online. Don't read like parenting books. “Here's the seven steps to being a good parent.” But start noticing how children are around you, how they're behaved, how they act, what they're about and start listening. And then go up to people in your lives who are what you consider good, healthy role models and ask them, what did they do? then look at the people who have kids that are out of control or not acting the way you think act and don't do the stuff that they do. Uh, I think that's a big part of what helped me is like, Oh, I want to know why you did that. And I also don't want to do that thing. And I'll never forget my neighbor, Joel Bland, and he was married Kathleen Collins. They had kids. And he said, you know, you're going to do something to screw your kids up. You just are, you just do your best though. I remember watching her, this blew my mind. She was with her daughter and getting her out of the backseat of the car and her daughter was crying like hysterical crying and Kathleen was calm. Not raising to that emotional intensity. And she said, yeah, what's going on? And her daughter's like, I want ice cream. She goes, I know I want ice cream too. It would be great. We just can't have it. And her daughter stopped crying. And I was like, Oh my God, that's like a magic trick. And then you're not going to have to know all the answers or be the perfect parent. You don't have to live up to the great parents. Your parents were, you just have to show up for your kids and do your best. And that's it.

James Clasper: I love that story about the ice cream and saying, yeah, I also want it because, you know, one thing is that kids, they just want to feel seen.

Jay Sukow: Seen and heard. And I think that's the thing with improv is like, yes. And it's like, I hear you. Like, I hear you. It doesn't mean you get blanket agreement. It just is like, no, I hear you. And like making sure that they know you hear them and that you're a safe person to come to no matter what are two critical parts for being a parent is like, yeah, I hear you. I see you. I'm not going to say yes to everything, but I'm going to hear you and I'm going to connect with you. And then that allows that trust to keep building. .

James Clasper: That's almost the perfect place to end it, except I've got one more question. Although you may want to think about the answer for a bit, I don't know. It's very simple. What's your favorite dad joke?

Jay Sukow: Oh, do I have to only have one?

James Clasper: Okay, this is, we're halfway through this special three hour episode, so, uh, the second half is entirely dad jokes. Let's go.

Jay Sukow: Oh, I've got a ton of them. I have a shirt that says dad jokes are how I roll. And it's E Y E R O L L.

James Clasper: Boom.

Jay Sukow: I got so many of them. What kind of cheese isn't your cheese? Nacho cheese, because it's nacho cheese.  I love dad jokes and I love the reactions that I get from adults and kids from them. I've loved dad jokes since I was a kid, but now I finally get to actually them because I'm a dad. You have to keep the spark of joy in your lives with your kids too. You have to have moments of silliness and playfulness. my, when my son worried and anxious, he doesn't say I'm worried and anxious. He says to me, will you play with me? That's his sign to me. So I have to hear that rather than going, I can't play with you because X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, no. What he's saying to me is I'm feeling anxious.

I'm feeling scared. you play with me? So listen to what they're saying to you. Not just the words that they're saying.

James Clasper: Now that is the perfect place to end it. Jay, thank you so much for this wonderful, wonderful conversation.

Jay Sukow: James, you're the best. Thanks for reaching out. It was great talking with you. 

James Clasper: This episode was produced and hosted by me, James Clasper for Archipelago Audio. The music’s by Pete Morrison. For more stories and inspiration, Head to Dad Mode Activated DOT C O. That's dadmodeactivated.co. And if today's show resonated with you, please consider leaving a nice rating or review, Or better yet, share the episode with someone who might enjoy it. Until next time, keep your Dad Mode Activated.